By Thursday before class, you must post once on the blog. In your response, you will be assessed by the same qualities of discussion that we generated in class (evidence, uptake, etc.). You must also post another time by Friday before class in response to the same question. No response should exceed 100 words.
Thursday, September 24, 2009
Post #1 -- Group 4
Using Gardner’s Grendel, answer the following questions:
How do monsters function and deal with the dominant society? How do his values interact with those of the dominant society?
In Gardner's text it can be seen that Grendel views the violent and wasteful tendencies of members of society to be even more monstrous than his own killings. Therefore he rebels against society because joining it would go against his moral code. "I was sickened, if only at the waste of it." (36).
I agree with the idea that he thinks the society is wasteful. I think that he is mad because they think killing people is no big deal. This is seen when Grendel observes, "Now and then some trivial argument would break out, and one of them would kill another one...they'd consider the case and they'd...excuse him" (32).
Grendel also thinks that they are egocentric and at times unreliable too. He states, "I would try to ignore him, but they were treacherous. In the end, I had to eat them" (33). He rebels against the society because his morals are reluctant to accept their actions.
I would like to add a new idea that Grendel and the society both value victory. However, they both cannot win, so Grendel can't positively interact with society. Grendel was mad when they sang, "as if by some lunatic theory they had won"(14). He believes victory was his so he can't accept the victory of their society.
I agree with Liz that Grendel opposes society to gain victory, however, I also think they both know there is a higher power that always has true victory over them. For example, Grendel says, "Space hurls outward ... like an irreversible injustice..." (9). Also, the people of society say, "This is... punishment ... Some god is angry" (13). Both Grendel and society acknowledge a higher power, weather it is fate or God.
I agree that Grendel values the idea of victory, however, I don't believe that Grendel is convinced there is a higher power that rules over all. While stuck in the tree, Grendel, referring to himself, says, "...an ugly god pitifully dying in a tree!"(22). Grendel doesn't recognize a higher power but rather views himself being the highest power there is, no matter how pitiful he may be.
I would like to go back to what Liz said about Grendel and the Anglo-Saxon society both valuing victory. I agree that they can't positively interact, but the reason is because they are battling each other. This is seen when Grendel is dying and says, "They watch on, evil...enjoying my destruction" (174). They both want the victory of killing the other and the humans relish the fact that they have defeated Grendel.
Like Holly said, I believe that Grendel and the Anglo-Saxon society both value victory. However, I think they value it for different reasons. While the Anglo-Saxons are out to kill Grendel from the beginning and want that victory, Grendel only wants to kill them because they are unaccepting of him: "the world resists me and I resist the world" (28).
Holly I can see because they're battling each other they can't positively interact, but only one side is victorious so that proves my point. Also, they NEED the idea of victory - Grendel had toyed with the idea should he stay "where [he] was safe" (157). But instead he went to go fight because he wanted to win.
Liz I understand your point that Grendel needs victory and chooses to leave his "safe place" solely for the purpose of achieving victory, however the only reason Grendel chooses to fight is because his original plan of interacting positively with the Anglo-Saxons does not bode too well for him. Grendel says, "I would try to befriend the exile...in the end, I had to eat them"(33). He does not wish for victory but rather is forced to battle with them.
I agree with Melissa's point that Grendel kills as a result of not being accepted, however, I also think this rejection comes from a deeper problem rooted in Grendel's values, which is his lack of understanding of suffrage. "They will not snatch me in a thousand years..." (10). Exempt from physical pain, Grendel views himself as immortal. This ignorance of what it feels like to suffer or die takes away the significance of what pain really is, better enabling him to kill.
I agree with Jenny's point that Grendel views himself being immortal and it also proves Timmy's idea about Grendel defining himself having a God-like power. He states, "I exist, nothing else" (28), proving that he is ignorant about world as he only observes the world through his eyes and he believes that he has the ultimate power, compared to any other creature in the world.
I really like the idea that jenny brought out emphasizing that Grendel's immortality makes him blind to the pain of death. He takes joy in death similar to the Gods of old. This personality trait about him was established early on and demonstrated through the majority of the novel. "A baby bird falls feet-up in my path, squeaking. With a crabby laugh, I let him lie, kind heaven's merciful bounty to some sick fox." (8). we would call this twisted while for him it is normal and also comical.
I also think that Grendel finds joy in killing, but I disagree that his sense of immortality makes him blind to pain and suffering. When he was fighting the calf he had a realization that he could die: "Poor Grendel will hang here and starve to death" (18). Thus, he doesn't think that he is immortal. Just because he is victorious in most of his battles does not make him unaware of the pain of death.
I don't think Grendel believes he's immortal, more that he's alone in the world. Grendel said "I create the whole universe" (22) after describing how he believed the world was a "mechanical chaos of causal" (22) causing me to believe that although people surround him, the universe he created around himself was made solely for him, making him feel alone.
I agree with Liz's idea of Grendel feeling alone because he says "I was alone" (80). From this the reader can infer that he is lonely from being alone and therefore sad. When one is left by themselves they naturally become sad because there is no one there for them.
In Gardner's text it can be seen that Grendel views the violent and wasteful tendencies of members of society to be even more monstrous than his own killings. Therefore he rebels against society because joining it would go against his moral code. "I was sickened, if only at the waste of it." (36).
ReplyDeleteI agree with the idea that he thinks the society is wasteful. I think that he is mad because they think killing people is no big deal. This is seen when Grendel observes, "Now and then some trivial argument would break out, and one of them would kill another one...they'd consider the case and they'd...excuse him" (32).
ReplyDeleteGrendel also thinks that they are egocentric and at times unreliable too. He states, "I would try to ignore him, but they were treacherous. In the end, I had to eat them" (33). He rebels against the society because his morals are reluctant to accept their actions.
ReplyDeleteI would like to add a new idea that Grendel and the society both value victory. However, they both cannot win, so Grendel can't positively interact with society. Grendel was mad when they sang, "as if by some lunatic theory they had won"(14). He believes victory was his so he can't accept the victory of their society.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Liz that Grendel opposes society to gain victory, however, I also think they both know there is a higher power that always has true victory over them. For example, Grendel says, "Space hurls outward ... like an irreversible injustice..." (9). Also, the people of society say, "This is... punishment ... Some god is angry" (13). Both Grendel and society acknowledge a higher power, weather it is fate or God.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Grendel values the idea of victory, however, I don't believe that Grendel is convinced there is a higher power that rules over all. While stuck in the tree, Grendel, referring to himself, says, "...an ugly god pitifully dying in a tree!"(22). Grendel doesn't recognize a higher power but rather views himself being the highest power there is, no matter how pitiful he may be.
ReplyDeleteI would like to go back to what Liz said about Grendel and the Anglo-Saxon society both valuing victory. I agree that they can't positively interact, but the reason is because they are battling each other. This is seen when Grendel is dying and says, "They watch on, evil...enjoying my destruction" (174). They both want the victory of killing the other and the humans relish the fact that they have defeated Grendel.
ReplyDeleteLike Holly said, I believe that Grendel and the Anglo-Saxon society both value victory. However, I think they value it for different reasons. While the Anglo-Saxons are out to kill Grendel from the beginning and want that victory, Grendel only wants to kill them because they are unaccepting of him: "the world resists me and I resist the world" (28).
ReplyDeleteHolly I can see because they're battling each other they can't positively interact, but only one side is victorious so that proves my point. Also, they NEED the idea of victory - Grendel had toyed with the idea should he stay "where [he] was safe" (157). But instead he went to go fight because he wanted to win.
ReplyDeleteLiz I understand your point that Grendel needs victory and chooses to leave his "safe place" solely for the purpose of achieving victory, however the only reason Grendel chooses to fight is because his original plan of interacting positively with the Anglo-Saxons does not bode too well for him. Grendel says, "I would try to befriend the exile...in the end, I had to eat them"(33). He does not wish for victory but rather is forced to battle with them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Melissa's point that Grendel kills as a result of not being accepted, however, I also think this rejection comes from a deeper problem rooted in Grendel's values, which is his lack of understanding of suffrage. "They will not snatch me in a thousand years..." (10). Exempt from physical pain, Grendel views himself as immortal. This ignorance of what it feels like to suffer or die takes away the significance of what pain really is, better enabling him to kill.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jenny's point that Grendel views himself being immortal and it also proves Timmy's idea about Grendel defining himself having a God-like power. He states, "I exist, nothing else" (28), proving that he is ignorant about world as he only observes the world through his eyes and he believes that he has the ultimate power, compared to any other creature in the world.
ReplyDeleteI really like the idea that jenny brought out emphasizing that Grendel's immortality makes him blind to the pain of death. He takes joy in death similar to the Gods of old. This personality trait about him was established early on and demonstrated through the majority of the novel. "A baby bird falls feet-up in my path, squeaking. With a crabby laugh, I let him lie, kind heaven's merciful bounty to some sick fox." (8). we would call this twisted while for him it is normal and also comical.
ReplyDeleteI also think that Grendel finds joy in killing, but I disagree that his sense of immortality makes him blind to pain and suffering. When he was fighting the calf he had a realization that he could die: "Poor Grendel will hang here and starve to death" (18). Thus, he doesn't think that he is immortal. Just because he is victorious in most of his battles does not make him unaware of the pain of death.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Grendel believes he's immortal, more that he's alone in the world. Grendel said "I create the whole universe" (22) after describing how he believed the world was a "mechanical chaos of causal" (22) causing me to believe that although people surround him, the universe he created around himself was made solely for him, making him feel alone.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Liz's idea of Grendel feeling alone because he says "I was alone" (80). From this the reader can infer that he is lonely from being alone and therefore sad. When one is left by themselves they naturally become sad because there is no one there for them.
ReplyDelete