By Thursday before class, you must post once on the blog. In your response, you will be assessed by the same qualities of discussion that we generated in class (evidence, uptake, etc.). You must also post another time by Friday before class in response to the same question. No response should exceed 100 words.
Wednesday, October 14, 2009
Post #2 -- Group 4
Using evidence from both texts, answer the following questions:
To what extent is the monster/hero responsible for his exile? How do his values contribute to his exile?
The monsters are in exile by choice. Their actions are what condemns them. In Grendel it's stated that "[He has] eaten several priests" (129). Grendel ate them after he destroyed their city. He was not going to be welcome there because his acts made the society hate him. Society is responsible for heroes' exile. In Beowulf, Grendel's mother had attacked and Beowulf was summoned. Hrothgar tells Beowulf "she has taken up the feud because of last night, when you killed Grendel" (1333-1334, p. 93). Hrothgar blames Beowulf for what happened because Beowulf made her upset. His actions reciprocated a negative effect so the society blames them. They do accept him once again, however, when he goes to fight her.
I agree with Liz that monsters are responsible for exiling themselves, however, I do think that society also plays a significant role in their separation. As Liz has mentioned, Grendel knows that he is not welcomed in the society as his actions contradict with the Anglo-Saxon values, thus making him feel guilt, and referring to Gardner's text, "My heart... leaden with grief... I backed away... further into darkness"(48), it is apparent that Grendel isolates himself from the society as he observes that he is unaccepted by them. Beowulf faces the same situation as society rejects him for their loss, and blames him for the rise of Grendel's mother as he "killed Grendel" (1334).
I see your point that Grendel and Beowulf both seperate themselves from society because of their actions. But the Anglo Saxons never gave Grendel a choice whether or not to be exhiled because they saw him as an outcast from the beginning: "I'd meant them no harm, but they'd attacked me again, as always" (79). Because Grendel was already labeled as a monster, the only way he could have association with the society is to carry out what they already thought of him. As for Beowulf, the society expected too much out of him to protect them. Only after Hrothgar learned the Grendle's mother wanted revenge, did he blame Beowulf for not fully protecting them, "she has taken up the fued,because of last night, when you killed Grendel" (1333-1334)
Liz I understand your point that Grendel does himself no favors to gain respect of the Anglo-Saxons, however he never got the chance to remove himself from this exile. Listening to the harper, Grendel thinks, "My heart was light with Hrothgar's goodness...with grief at my own bloodthirsty ways"(48) Grendel doesn't wish to be seperated from others and even enjoys their presence. Even before Beowulf sees Grendel with his own eyes, he refers to him as "God-cursed"(711, pg. 49) Grendel never got the chance to prove his innocence, and therefore, under no fault of his own, he was put into exile.
I see what everyone is saying that they are being exiled by choice but I also think it is because they do not "belong" in society. When Grendel is described he is portrayed as having, "Flanks atremble, eyes like stones...gross, lopsided balls and charging brains with the same unrest that made him suffer last year at this time" (6). The fact that the author uses the word "gross" and the phrase "eyes like stones" the reader can infer that he is not a pleasent looking creature and therefore rejected by societies standards and expectations.
I agree with Grace that these characters feel like they do not belong with the society. At the beginning, even though he tries to befriend with the people in the society, the Anglo-Saxon society never gave him a chance to be a part of them. The communication between them causes trouble as the people do not understand his intentions and with his outrageous appearance leads to a conclusion that he is a monster. As he finds himself unaccepted by the society, Grendel isolates himself from the society, and "backed away... further into the darkness" (48).
I see what Grace is saying about Grendel not physically fitting into the Anglo-Saxon socity but I agree with Melissa more about how he just is never given the chance to be a part of their society. He states in Grendel, "I knew them, had watched them; yet the things he said seemed true" (47). He watches their society and wishes to be a part of it because the harper makes it seem "true". Beowulf will never give him Grendel a chance to be part of their society because he never proves himself to be more than a beast with his actions. In Beowulf it says, "And his glee was demonic, picturing his mayhem" (730-731). He only acts like a monster and is thus exiled.
I agree that they do not "belong" in society however I disagree with the previous statement by JSimon that the characters FEEL they don't belong. When listening to the people talk, Grendel thinks, "they talked in something akin to my language...we were, incredibly, related"(36). Grendel can relate to these people and for this reason feels that he belongs. In Beowulf's case when he first meets Wulfgar his first words are, "I am ready and willing to report my errand"(346-347). Beowulf's willingness to protect the society shows that he not only belongs there but feels obliged to protect them.
I can understand where Holly is coming from about how Grendel is exiled due to his violence towards the Anglo-Saxon society. However the true fault does not lie on Grendel but rather on the treatment he initially receives from mankind.When Grendel gets his foot caught in the tree the men who come upon him treat him with malice and therefore he grows resentment towards mankind. "The king snatched an ax from the man beside him and, without any warning, he hurled it at me." (27). Therefore any destruction caused by Grendel upon the Danes is their own fault because they are the ones who made him despise humans. Therefore the exile of Grendel was not Grendel's fault in fact but rather that of the Danes and therefore any violence against the Danes is also their fault. "so Grendel waged his lonely war, inflicting constant cruelties." (164-165). He is lonely and killing their people. Both were the fault of the Danes.
I can see both that Grendel is exiled because of his violence and that he's exiled because of the Danes treatment to him. However, I believe it is a continuous circle. The Danes treated him badly so Grendel reciprocated the action causing them to hate him even more, etc. Grendel went on a raid where he "slit them open and devoured them on the spot" (79). Clearly the people are not going to react well to this. When Beowulf had just heard about Grendel he said he was going to go search out the "prince who needed defenders" (201). Stories had been circulating about Grendel causing others to judge Grendel without seeing anything first hand leading to more destruction because people expected the worst.
I completely agree with Liz that Grendel's actions are caused by the treatment he recieves from the society and that Grendel only acts worse because of it. The only reason why Grendel is fighting the Anglo-Saxons is because they began to fight first: "I had no intention of terrifying Hrothgar's thanes for nothing" (76). If Grendel didn't intend to hurt the Anglo Saxons, then he wouldn't have if they didn't do something to offend him first. In Beowulf, Grendel is described as "spurned and joyless" (72) when he is just about to kill in the middle of the night. Grendel doesn't like being enemies to Hrothgar and his people, but has no choice if he wants to defend his honor. Therefore, he has to kill just like the Anglo-Saxons even if he would prefer not to.
I also agree with Liz and Melissa about Grendel's actions being caused by the treatment he recieves from the society. When Grendel first sees the humans, its narrated, "The king snatched an ax from the man beside him and, without any warning, he hurled it at me"(27). Grendel doesn't do anything harmful and yet the Anglo-Saxons immediately try to kill him. In Beowulf Grendel's actions are seen as, "Grendel's powers of destruction were plain" (127). His actions are in defense at first because the humans attacked him first. Only later in the text does Grendel start killing for joy.
I agree with Holly when she said Grendel's actions are caused by the treatment he receives from society. This is clearly demonstrated when Grendel is caught in the tree and his thinks if he dies "and no one will ever miss him" (18). This shows it is very apparent that the Anglo-Saxons don't like Grendel because he can say "no one will miss him". Also in Beowulf when the Heaney says, "God-cursed Grendel came greedily loping" (711). This shows how they see Grendel as some "God-cursed" monster that doesn't deserve to life because of his "greed".
The monsters are in exile by choice. Their actions are what condemns them. In Grendel it's stated that "[He has] eaten several priests" (129). Grendel ate them after he destroyed their city. He was not going to be welcome there because his acts made the society hate him.
ReplyDeleteSociety is responsible for heroes' exile. In Beowulf, Grendel's mother had attacked and Beowulf was summoned. Hrothgar tells Beowulf "she has taken up the feud because of last night, when you killed Grendel" (1333-1334, p. 93). Hrothgar blames Beowulf for what happened because Beowulf made her upset. His actions reciprocated a negative effect so the society blames them. They do accept him once again, however, when he goes to fight her.
I agree with Liz that monsters are responsible for exiling themselves, however, I do think that society also plays a significant role in their separation. As Liz has mentioned, Grendel knows that he is not welcomed in the society as his actions contradict with the Anglo-Saxon values, thus making him feel guilt, and referring to Gardner's text, "My heart... leaden with grief... I backed away... further into darkness"(48), it is apparent that Grendel isolates himself from the society as he observes that he is unaccepted by them. Beowulf faces the same situation as society rejects him for their loss, and blames him for the rise of Grendel's mother as he "killed Grendel" (1334).
ReplyDeleteI see your point that Grendel and Beowulf both seperate themselves from society because of their actions. But the Anglo Saxons never gave Grendel a choice whether or not to be exhiled because they saw him as an outcast from the beginning: "I'd meant them no harm, but they'd attacked me again, as always" (79). Because Grendel was already labeled as a monster, the only way he could have association with the society is to carry out what they already thought of him. As for Beowulf, the society expected too much out of him to protect them. Only after Hrothgar learned the Grendle's mother wanted revenge, did he blame Beowulf for not fully protecting them, "she has taken up the fued,because of last night, when you killed Grendel" (1333-1334)
ReplyDeleteLiz I understand your point that Grendel does himself no favors to gain respect of the Anglo-Saxons, however he never got the chance to remove himself from this exile. Listening to the harper, Grendel thinks, "My heart was light with Hrothgar's goodness...with grief at my own bloodthirsty ways"(48) Grendel doesn't wish to be seperated from others and even enjoys their presence. Even before Beowulf sees Grendel with his own eyes, he refers to him as "God-cursed"(711, pg. 49) Grendel never got the chance to prove his innocence, and therefore, under no fault of his own, he was put into exile.
ReplyDeleteI see what everyone is saying that they are being exiled by choice but I also think it is because they do not "belong" in society. When Grendel is described he is portrayed as having, "Flanks atremble, eyes like stones...gross, lopsided balls and charging brains with the same unrest that made him suffer last year at this time" (6). The fact that the author uses the word "gross" and the phrase "eyes like stones" the reader can infer that he is not a pleasent looking creature and therefore rejected by societies standards and expectations.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Grace that these characters feel like they do not belong with the society. At the beginning, even though he tries to befriend with the people in the society, the Anglo-Saxon society never gave him a chance to be a part of them. The communication between them causes trouble as the people do not understand his intentions and with his outrageous appearance leads to a conclusion that he is a monster. As he finds himself unaccepted by the society, Grendel isolates himself from the society, and "backed away... further into the darkness" (48).
ReplyDeleteI see what Grace is saying about Grendel not physically fitting into the Anglo-Saxon socity but I agree with Melissa more about how he just is never given the chance to be a part of their society. He states in Grendel, "I knew them, had watched them; yet the things he said seemed true" (47). He watches their society and wishes to be a part of it because the harper makes it seem "true". Beowulf will never give him Grendel a chance to be part of their society because he never proves himself to be more than a beast with his actions. In Beowulf it says, "And his glee was demonic, picturing his mayhem" (730-731). He only acts like a monster and is thus exiled.
ReplyDeleteI agree that they do not "belong" in society however I disagree with the previous statement by JSimon that the characters FEEL they don't belong. When listening to the people talk, Grendel thinks, "they talked in something akin to my language...we were, incredibly, related"(36). Grendel can relate to these people and for this reason feels that he belongs. In Beowulf's case when he first meets Wulfgar his first words are, "I am ready and willing to report my errand"(346-347). Beowulf's willingness to protect the society shows that he not only belongs there but feels obliged to protect them.
ReplyDeleteI can understand where Holly is coming from about how Grendel is exiled due to his violence towards the Anglo-Saxon society. However the true fault does not lie on Grendel but rather on the treatment he initially receives from mankind.When Grendel gets his foot caught in the tree the men who come upon him treat him with malice and therefore he grows resentment towards mankind. "The king snatched an ax from the man beside him and, without any warning, he hurled it at me." (27). Therefore any destruction caused by Grendel upon the Danes is their own fault because they are the ones who made him despise humans. Therefore the exile of Grendel was not Grendel's fault in fact but rather that of the Danes and therefore any violence against the Danes is also their fault. "so Grendel waged his lonely war, inflicting constant cruelties." (164-165). He is lonely and killing their people. Both were the fault of the Danes.
ReplyDeleteI can see both that Grendel is exiled because of his violence and that he's exiled because of the Danes treatment to him. However, I believe it is a continuous circle. The Danes treated him badly so Grendel reciprocated the action causing them to hate him even more, etc. Grendel went on a raid where he "slit them open and devoured them on the spot" (79). Clearly the people are not going to react well to this. When Beowulf had just heard about Grendel he said he was going to go search out the "prince who needed defenders" (201). Stories had been circulating about Grendel causing others to judge Grendel without seeing anything first hand leading to more destruction because people expected the worst.
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Liz that Grendel's actions are caused by the treatment he recieves from the society and that Grendel only acts worse because of it. The only reason why Grendel is fighting the Anglo-Saxons is because they began to fight first: "I had no intention of terrifying Hrothgar's thanes for nothing" (76). If Grendel didn't intend to hurt the Anglo Saxons, then he wouldn't have if they didn't do something to offend him first. In Beowulf, Grendel is described as "spurned and joyless" (72) when he is just about to kill in the middle of the night. Grendel doesn't like being enemies to Hrothgar and his people, but has no choice if he wants to defend his honor. Therefore, he has to kill just like the Anglo-Saxons even if he would prefer not to.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Liz and Melissa about Grendel's actions being caused by the treatment he recieves from the society. When Grendel first sees the humans, its narrated, "The king snatched an ax from the man beside him and, without any warning, he hurled it at me"(27). Grendel doesn't do anything harmful and yet the Anglo-Saxons immediately try to kill him. In Beowulf Grendel's actions are seen as, "Grendel's powers of destruction were plain" (127). His actions are in defense at first because the humans attacked him first. Only later in the text does Grendel start killing for joy.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Holly when she said Grendel's actions are caused by the treatment he receives from society. This is clearly demonstrated when Grendel is caught in the tree and his thinks if he dies "and no one will ever miss him" (18). This shows it is very apparent that the Anglo-Saxons don't like Grendel because he can say "no one will miss him". Also in Beowulf when the Heaney says, "God-cursed Grendel came greedily loping" (711). This shows how they see Grendel as some "God-cursed" monster that doesn't deserve to life because of his "greed".
ReplyDelete